Come on in John, Have a Seat and Let's Talk.

[dankboosh]

I think it's time to let this shit go.

[Billthegravedigger]

Considering that nobody will respond anymore, I guess you will get your wish there Dankboosh.

[RedneckR0nin]

Originally Posted by dankboosh

I think it's time to let this shit go.

I could agree with this too, there just comes to a point a guess that regardless of what you believe happened that day there is nothing that will change it or bring those people back that died. It is and will be known as the biggest event in our time. Hopefully be known as the most watched and in that last major act of terrorism in the world.
Whether or not you believe that obl did it or if you think others. That's what that day was and it worked. It spread fear and anger and put us all in a hard world with hard choices. I for one won't let that affect my life. In fact it is because of that event I searched out and became close to many that follow the Islamic faiths. I have met wonderful people and interacted with wonderful people because of that day. I've educated myself and learnt countless of things that otherwise I wouldn't be bothered. So good things come from that day it's all in how you want to perceive it.

[rob666]

Originally Posted by RedneckR0nin

I could agree with this too, there just comes to a point a guess that regardless of what you believe happened that day there is nothing that will change it or bring those people back that died. It is and will be known as the biggest event in our time. Hopefully be known as the most watched and in that last major act of terrorism in the world.
Whether or not you believe that obl did it or if you think others. That's what that day was and it worked. It spread fear and anger and put us all in a hard world with hard choices. I for one won't let that affect my life. In fact it is because of that event I searched out and became close to many that follow the Islamic faiths. I have met wonderful people and interacted with wonderful people because of that day. I've educated myself and learnt countless of things that otherwise I wouldn't be bothered. So good things come from that day it's all in how you want to perceive it.

Good post.

This was a really good thread, for the most part it was civil and just a good discussion that I enjoyed reading.

[RedneckR0nin]

Originally Posted by rob666

Good post.

This was a really good thread, for the most part it was civil and just a good discussion that I enjoyed reading.

I think so too and I doubt highly it will die. Even if John decides to really not post in here again...there will be a new member that will take up the cause I am sure...and we will have to repeat all the same fucking shit over again. Bonus is that at least we haven't had 5 threads on this made in the past month...that was getting annoying reposting the same fucking things no one could have been bothered to read or even search for! SO that will be a nice change!

[Billthegravedigger]

I will say this, even though John and I don't see eye to eye on things, he is still a decent person. I wish him the best.

[RedneckR0nin]

Originally Posted by Billthegravedigger

I will say this, even though John and I don't see eye to eye on things, he is still a decent person. I wish him the best.

Same here but I reflect what I am shown in this topic nowadays. I have gone over and over and over and over and it is like talking to the wall! I listen to and review anything that is put at me but I don't see that courtesy being extended back to me. Oh well keep hope alive I guess!

[Billthegravedigger]

I get you RnR. One of those things I guess.

[RedneckR0nin]

Originally Posted by Billthegravedigger

I get you RnR. One of those things I guess.

I guess when you can't beat em just find another thread and avoid em!

[robot]

Just commenting on WTC 7 --- You're not seeing WTC 7 from the side that faced WTC 6 and WTC 1. WTC 7 collapses inward and pancakes down. That's b/c central girders were damaged from WTC 1 debris, after it collapsed. Just saying - things can look deceiving, if you're only looking at the collapse from the side of the building facing out from the WTC complex. By the way, were you ever in the towers? Cheers.


[quote=johnleeknoefler;2627128]
I do find it insulting to post conjecture and unsupported assertions. If you want to post an assertion about something you say happened then at least post one testimoney from a survivor that supports your claim. Otherwise your are just making up factoids based on your biased view. And I will disregard any unsupported claims that are your opinion. Same for any other person who tosses out foolish fantastical opinions. I tossed out the theory that the planes were not real and simply holograms because I saw so many videos to the contrary. Videos there were uploaded by private citizens that had been taken with cell phones and were directly uploaded. Some of these videos supported the governments claim that it was indeed the two aforementioned planes that were deliberately flown into the towers. That's established fact. No debate on that. How these terrorists were able to fly these planes into the towers is still a matter of debate. Others have postulated that the planes came under remote control somehow. Well, now there is no way at this time to prove such a possibility. But there is not much in the way of evidence to disprove such a method. Noam Comsky in clip posted by Ronin claims it is extremely difficult and one plane may have missed entirely. Now you come along and claim that it is so easy to pilot the planes that the second terrorist was able to ascertain (in his very brief and difficult approach?) and he was then able to redirect his approach a bit lower... Is it one way or the other. Is Noam Chomsky correct and it is so difficult that there is a 50/50 chance they could of missed? Then why did three of the four planes reach their targets and the fourth flight only failed because the passengers thwarted the hijackers efforts and interfered to the extent that they crashed the plane? And you had nothing to say about the witnesses to that attack. Why are you silent? You complain because I get busy and do some light online posting and spend my other time busy with my own personal offline affairs. And yet you have yet to respond with facts to even one of my assertions which I back up with eye witness reports and other supporting studies. I asked you specifically to respond with facts. Not personal opinion masquarading as facts. Hardly fair to just spout off one idea after another and expect me to go do my due diligence to disprove your wild theories that take little effort or thought on your own. I must protest such an abuse of my honest efforts.
So in response I must demand if you wish fair exchange of ideas to return the favor to me in the same way.


Favor returned. And here is a free idea for you to support your claims. Something neither you nor anyone else ever thought of.
Much debate has been made of the fact that there were large glowing masses of material uncovered in the basement levels of both towers and the Solomon building.
What these masses consist of has not been settled to my satisfaction. That they may of been molten steel from Thermate placed around critical columns is possible. But there are other ways there could be large glowing masses. When the buildings collapsed much heat was generated. Cars struck with the debri and dust cloud were incinerated. Much the same as it would of been with a pyroclastic flow.
http://www.geo.mtu.edu/volcanoes/haz...imer/pyro.html
Unfortunately there are serious problems with this idea. Pyroclastic flows are ejected by volcanoes and are already thousands of degrees f. at the time of ejection. And then they begin to cool right away from the surface inward. When they are wetted by rain and weather they form a concrete like substance.
WTC and it's floor material are not in any way simular. It is true that a great amount of heat may have been generated. But from this relatively small flow I don't see how the core of the debris pile would remain red hot five weeks later. Especially with the massive amounts of water poured on the site. And where are these masses that were extracted? It's very convienent to send all materials away with out checking for what these materials are exactly. NEVER before in the history of building demolitions have there been such large masses and red hot masses months later. And unless you are willing to entertain any other explanations rather than ones that support the governments explanation any discourse is pointless and doomed to frustration.

Believe me I have considered many options. Always I must go with the simplest explanation that takes into account all factors. You and those who have your mindset have been content to think of the simplest answers achievable while disregarding mountains of information. So it seems you cherry pick the information you are willing to accept. If it doesn't fit your ideas and doesn't fit the governments narrative then you simply disregard with platitudes, and conjecture based on nothing more than your own say so. And then like Noam Chomsky comment that even if it is all true (false flag operation) "Who cares?". "What does it matter?". Such a mindset can never be convinced of the truth of a situation as you already have no basis for reality.

Then you should publish your findings. I have done searches over and over on every angle and looked at days worth of video clips and the more I look the more problems I find with the governments narrative. I find various crackpots spewing out foolish conspiracy theories that disregard basic physics, common sense and known facts.
Then the government refuses to release critical CCTV feeds, cherry picks the investigation team, denies access to materials by the team, and hastily disposes of the debris.
Also there are numerous players involved with the government who have every reason to hide the truth. Not only that but they have the means at their disposal to obstruct any honest investigation.


And yet you expect me to respond to every foolish conjecture and platitude you can concoct to defend the governments position while disregarding plain evidence to the contrary. Also you refused to review the videos I posted. you refused to comment on those videos. You would of seen witnesses in the basement complaining of a blast coming out of the elevator shaft. Go ahead and tell me the source of that blast originated at the impact area of the airliners. Please tell me this.... I will laugh in your face because you seem to be most ignorant of facts on this issue. Such an assertion is completely baseless and moreover is completely false and shows you have no idea what you are talking about. We have eyewitnesses who saw people coming from the elevators (the public elevators and not the service elevators) who were involved in an explosion. This explosion could only come from BELOW. NOT FROM THE AIRPLANES IMPACT!
I showed victims who were neither panicked or nor in a mob mentality. These victims spoke calmly and rationally. Keep in mind that when they were injured they could not of been panicked. And the one survivor also was in the first attack. She in no way can be discredited. She felt the first blast and in the second attack she knew what was happening. She KNEW IT WAS A BOMB. And the other witness declares he felt the same blast and felt the floor lift UP since he was one floor higher and then he felt the shock of the airliner hitting come down from ABOVE and he realized they had misstimed the detonation of the explosive device by a few seconds.
You of course never commented on this and once more disregarded this vital information with the comment that there was no way anyone could sneak in and plant a bomb with high level of security. Really? Most of the attackers came from Saudi Arabia. The security company was based in SAUDI ARABIA... And owned by JEB BUSH. Tell me about the renovations in the preceding month? Tell me about the floors with access by the public completely blocked off and armed security to make sure NO ONE but the construction team had access. Find out who those teams were.. Find the names of the company. Find out who owns that company. Who paid them. Where are the records of the renovations that occurred in ALL THREE BUILDINGS????
And why renovate when there needs to be a MASSIVE asbestos cleanup? Would not the cleanup need to come first to avoid the added expense of reworking the renovations that had just been done? You don't ask any of these questions and I will not be surprised if you refuse to do a bit of due diligence and look up the answers. You have shown a surprisingly incurious attitude.


And you don't find that disturbing?

After WTC7 I know of no explosions and have seen no videos or testimony from eyewitnesses to that effect. And you have posted no proof. No files, no witnesses, no source.


Completely wrong. There were.
Side view of WTC7 Solomon building with explosions as it comes down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlqhMjsuuKk
WTC7 north face at the same time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0vq-r0NM4g

If you can't see this then I have nothing more to say to you. Watch it and comment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ujWitEr-Ww
Nothing can be more clear and more damning than this. When they say WTC7 is the smoking gun they are exactly right. The debunkers claim because WTC one and two could not be controlled demolitions because they did not collapse from the bottom as is the standard demolition. Then when WTC7 goes down in exactly that fashion they claim it was due to a few small scattered fires that where not in the area where the collapse started. This is COMPLETE disconnect from reality.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2q2m...eature=related
Molten Steel?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YaFG...eature=related

Watch and learn:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GapXrFdtnW4

Even George Walker Bush claims that there were controlled explosives in the trade towers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USnxe7hxP4I
I don't know how deep in denial you must be to deny your own eyes, ears and common sense to deny that the buildings were rigged. There was plenty of opportunity to do so in the months, weeks and days leading up to the attack. Of course no single explosion brought the buildings down. Not the explosions in the basement, not the explosions in the stairways of WTC7, Nor the explosions in the elevators of WTC1 and WTC2. Nor did the explosions on the north and west face of WTC7 that we can clearly see. None of the charges could brought down the buildings alone. The airplanes impact could not and did not do it alone. The fires did not and could not do it alone. It was a combination of these together that created the collapse. In WTC7 we are even lacking any significant fires or a plane strike. There was no major damage from falling material of the other tower. And we see clear evidence of explosives all up and down the two faces that are visible. Nothing could be clearer. We have eye witnesses from inside WTC7 who earlier in the day were attempting to evacuate and experienced massive explosions in the stair cases. We have Bush admitting that this was so and was planted by the terrorists. (I don't for minute believe the terrorists had that kind of access) You are sooo happy to ignore all this. When I counter you with facts you defend your position by making subtle changes to your original position by saying that's not what you meant to say or the meaning you intended to convey. It's not my responsibility for the words that you write. If your meaning is not clear it is no fault of mine that you are supposedly misunderstood. Vague blanket comments will do your arguments no credit at all.
I believe you meant what you said. I simply point out the foolishness of your comments and how unrealistic your assertions are. You also provide no supporting evidence. And you attempt to downplay the very good testimoney of EXPERT witnesses. AND I do mean EXPERT. People who have been through TWO attacks. And people who felt the explosions.


You are making assumptions yourself. I meant the damn bomb did not level the towers, I thought that was obvious when I stated Ramzi Youseif and the calculations he talked about. Yes, the bomb went off, but it didn't bring either tower down.


And so did I. If an attacker tries to kill you and almost succeeds and as you are lying there in the hospital he tells investigators it was no accident and he has friends that will finish the job and make no mistake then the police surely know it is coming. The police then would know that another attack is coming. But you ask me to believe that our federal govenment (which was WARNED of EXACTLY THIS FIRST ATTACK LONG BEFORE IT EVER OCCURRED ) will now not believe? REALLY? Sorry but your logic is a complete fail. And the government was warned of the second attack from multiple sources. They had credible evidence and the attackers had the means, opportunity and motive. All the elements were there. Please, don't INSULT MY INTELLIGENCE by trying to feed me a load of complete and utter bullshit and then telling me it's a steak and lobster dinner.


There are witnesses to strange activities on closed off floors during renovations.. They were silenced, ignored or marginalized to the point where they are no longer heard. When did you see one major network give them a chance to tell what they saw? hmm?
What about this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QC1QAR5gQrc


Now look who is deliberately misconstrueing my comments. I said the federal government saw this coming and did nothing. NOTHING to stop the attacks. They had FBI agents follow the attackers in and out of USA customs on their way to training camps. The agents had standing orders to NOT interfere. Some of the attackers rented rooms and shared a house with FBI agents. Look it up. You've posted enough unsupported claims that I get a bit sick of doing your research for you. This time you do my research for me and look it up and show me how I am right. Do it. As a gentleman that you purport to be I challange you to look up both sides of the argument.


Bullshit argument. The sound levels are different of course but they are NOT THE SAME AT ALL. And you show no one who claims that they sound the same. Not even eyewitnesses claim this. Even the firemen state that they can hear the bodies CRASHING down. Not explosive sounds at all. Stop defending your lame comments. Even now your defense is as lame as the original comments. It's tiresome. Admit you are wrong and at least restore some respect at had for you formerly. There is no one more obnoxious than the man who can not admit his errors. So then he establishes himself as a man full of shit. Don't be that person when you can simply admit you were posting rashly.


Sound recordings will of course not be experienced at the same level as being there. But they are EQUALLY degraded. With the real explosions having the much higher notes cut off. So it is more like a louder explosion won't sound so loud and may be mistaken for something else except that the signature is the same. A body smashing into pavement would be more recognizable and MORE easily differentiated in person than by recording. So your statement is the INVERSE of what is true. Your argument is very weak and baseless. You are upside down in your logic.


Actually the audio renderings of the falling bodies sounds much different than actual explosions. More like a crash when it strikes the awning and when it hits concrete different still. And perhaps it was only you who thought it was bombs going off. No one else said this. Only you.


Did you feel a shockwave going through the air. NO!. You could not. You felt the ground vibrate. You think this is remarkable. I remember in New Orleans I could feel the trucks going by on the highway. There was enough of a connection I could feel each and every truck going by from three hundred feet away. How much more are you going to feel a body striking pavement at terminal velocity. They are being splattered. Not the same at all. You can call it an explosion but it's a SLOW explosion. An explosive device explodes at thousands of feet per second. A body striking pavement "explodes" with no more energy than terminal velocity. NOT even remotely the same. Not the same signature even through a recording and over youtube and through my very nice headphones. Your argument is a complete fail in logic, physics and simple common sense.


Wrong. An explosion does indeed move out in all directions at several thousand feet per second. A body splatters at around 200 feet per second. Not the same at all. Moreover a body moves out in only one dimension. It does not explode upward and only deflects downward a minimal distance to create a vibration that you can feel through your feet. Not the same at all. This is complete fail of your argument. Only exception to this rule is when a body hits water or other deformable surface. An explosive device of any appreciable strength will go in all directions unless it is on concrete and then it will often create a crater. Any body craters like the cartoons? Would love to see that. Perhaps stop getting your information from Hanna Barbera. I heard if you watch too many cartoons it can distort reality?


Actually you insinuated that people who were witnesses could easily mistake body strikes for an actual explosion. Like you apparently did.

[quote]I have been around dynimite John, remember I am a grave digger. I have blasted rock out of graves, so I have a good idea of what explosions are.

Then you should be the first to know there is a marked difference.


You should do some research on smoke signatures. It's not my job to educate you. Even primative pre industrial Native Americans knew this much. Every hear of smoke signals? I won't elaborate. There are well known principals here that even children understand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire

I love it when they say the Solomon building has collapsed 30 minutes before it happens and claims that it's down when I can clearly see it. Then they cut her feed. Fail, Fail, And fail.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rQ8hj0kaJsWhat a complete farce.